Alt Agency

Episode Transcript

Mike Mark: [00:00:00]

I am going with Greg Hickman, who, Greg is a master when it comes to systems specifically as it relates to agencies, productizing your agency in order to scale your agency. I think that like, you know, knowing you, you kind of have the curse and like a lot of your clients have the curse, which is like, you guys are really smart and then you actually give a fuck about your clients and the results, right?

And so you're willing to do like anything in order to deliver on your promises and then like, as you do that, it works great in the beginning in order to kind of get that reputation, get the client base moving, but then once you do that enough, you get to this place where you're like in this hell of customization, where every client relationship is different. Every project you're doing is different.

And then, you just can't scale. Like it's more time for money and that doesn't work. And then, so, you've really sorted it out yourself and then figure it out how to take that process and help people scale. And I think if I remember correctly, you were stuck at like 15 to 25 grand a month, right?

Greg Hickman: [00:01:22]

No, we were actually, when we were still doing like done for you, we were like kind of averaging like 50 to 55.

Mike Mark: [00:01:31]

Oh okay. okay.

Greg Hickman: [00:01:32]

And that like, we couldn't we'd have like some peaks and valleys around there, but like, we were kind of netting out around, around that mark, but really couldn't break past that the way we were doing it. Which, but caveat to that is we see mo most people kind of hit that same friction around, you know, kind of like that 25 to 35K a month.

We just blew past that number so fast that I think the, the, like, it, it just caught up with us. Like we just never even realized that like where the problems were and then they caught up with us. So.

Mike Mark: [00:02:07]

Yeah. And I know, I like, I think for you specifically, it could also have a lot to do with like that you worked. Oh, like you almost were like us in a lot of ways where you had behind the scenes access to a lot of like pretty big people. And you have really close relationships with people who have made major audiences, like pretty big sway. And so when you have that backstage access effectively start to meet all the other crew members, all the other cast members, right?

And so it's like when, when you need something, you can call up that homie who you know, is like super good, super reliable, and you plug them onto a project. So you got like access to a level of talent that a lot of normal agency owners don't get when they're scaling. And they're just kind of like dealing with run of the mil clients, as opposed to the types of clients you are working with.

Greg Hickman: [00:02:54]

Yeah. And also being kind of like the backstage. I mean, we, it was like, it's kind of a double edged sword. Cause we got pulled into a lot of team meetings that you know of our clients. And so, yeah, because we were helping set up a lot of these, you know, backend systems, not just like sales and marketing funnels.

We really started to see how they would operate and like how they structure things, how they structure team. And I was always one that like loved to see how things work. I mean, even questions I've asked you, it's like, you know, I'm trying to understand how everyone pieces these things together. And so I was always that way.

And so when I started seeing that and we started making some of these transitions, it was like, I already knew what it was going to look like three, four, five steps ahead, because I was exposed to kind of how other people were doing it and cataloging that and paying attention to it versus I think some service providers, you know, just get so caught in the wiz that they don't even see, you know, see what's happening, that they can garner that insight. And that was just one thing that I think I pulled away from being behind some of these things, big names. It's just how they were able to operate and structure things.

Mike Mark: [00:04:05]

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that, like, that's definitely a big blessing for us too, is like, I've taken a lot of that where I saw how people operated that got to eight figures very quickly.

And it was like, okay, I get the patterns here. And I see the difference between them and what they're doing and the other people. And so it's just like picking and choosing what works for you while kind of keeping some of the stuff that you don't necessarily agree with outside of your business.

Greg Hickman: [00:04:29]

Right.

Mike Mark: [00:04:30]

So I guess the, the thing that most of the audience here is going to have, is that, you know, whenever someone's trying to scale, in agency offer, I feel like the, there's like two tricks that are like the, just the cheap tricks, right? Like cheap trick number one is, raise your prices. Cheap trick number two is group coaching, bro. And it's like, those are like the only cheap tricks that it feels like most coaches are going to offer.

And then they suddenly think, like I just told you to raise your prices. And I told you to switch to group coaching and I charged you 10 grand for that. And that was a steal of the century for you, right? Like, so.

Greg Hickman: [00:05:10]

I think there's a third. I think there's a third.

Mike Mark: [00:05:12]

What's the third? What the third?

Greg Hickman: [00:05:14]

The third, the third new trick, which I think is probably has more merit than the first two. But you see it a lot now is basically teaching every digital agency owner to basically go get, go get leads for their clients, like become like a lead generation machine for clients. And so now it's like, I see a lot of the agency coaching programs are really just focused on lead gen and sales and marketing.

And to me, like, there's just always having been behind the scenes, there's just so much more to it on the fulfillment side and that most of these people know they'll never even cover fulfillment.

Mike Mark: [00:05:45]

Yeah. That's interesting. That's a good point. And I know that like you're super fulfillment focused, almost like to a fault for you, right?

Like when you came to us, it was like, “Holy crap! I don't, I don't like sales calls at all and I don't want to be doing them. I just want to be building product.” So, so I guess what, what's different? Like how does someone do that without just like turning their agency into another shitty group coaching program?

Greg Hickman: [00:06:11]

Yeah. And like first caveat, I think there's really some good elements to group coaching. I just think if you completely go from agency to group coaching, I think you're actually just missing the huge, the biggest opportunity, which is the, the, like the ability to execute. And so, you know, most agencies originally were hired because they also knew how to do something, not just could do it.

And so that means you were hired for your expertise as well as essentially labor, but over time, labor decreases in value. And that's like when all these agencies are selling retainers, you get slowly pulled in to like the back-office operations. This is where you really feel like that employee. But you've kind of departed from the expertise element of it.

And so I think the first thing is, is like really starting to dissect your own methodology. So that you can train, not just internally, but also weave your client into the fulfillment process so it's more done with you. And I think there are elements of group coaching in there, but it's not just group coaching.

It's like group coaching plus the, the packaged intellectual property plus the prebuilt systems and execution support. And so like, it's not necessarily have to do done for you on everything, but maybe there's some strategic pieces that are done for you and your clients now woven into fulfillment. And it's more of like a, it's like a hybrid of a, of an agency and call it, you know, a group coaching or consulting program.

Mike Mark: [00:07:43]

Yeah. Yeah. Which makes sense. I mean like you are working with us as a client and that's like exactly what we do, right? There's huge elements we've done for you. And then there's also elements of like, Hey, here's the intellectual property or here's the, the frameworks and methodologies. And then here's the actual like systems or templates as well as then the regular cadence of communication.

Greg Hickman: [00:08:05]

Yeah, totally.

Mike Mark: [00:08:06]

So, yeah, that's, that's interesting. And it's, it's cool that you point that out. I think that's like a, almost like a trifecta of the things, like part of it is that group coaching, part of it is then the strategic execution, right? And like working with them, but doing it for them slightly in both sides.

And then part of it is your intellectual property and your systems and frameworks that you have. And like when you combine those three.

Greg Hickman: [00:08:31]

Yeah. Like some of the, like the systems and, you know, we'll call it system, but like, the, the templates and like the spreadsheets and the trackers and the tools that you've built, right? Like if I, I had to go figure that out myself, like out of that would have been double the amount of time that it would have taken me just to figure out some of that stuff. And so like, that's what I call pre preloaded done for you. And I think that's like a huge element that service providers can bring to the table is like, no, no client of yours should ever start anything from scratch ever again because you're building these tools and these resources that they can adopt and adapt to their business, which came from you doing the done for you like a long time ago, right? And so like you've built all these things. Like I shouldn't have to build it from scratch, like hand it over. And like now that's, speed, you know, the benefit of speed. So I think there's tons of opportunities for, for agencies to do that.

I think the biggest thing that most people miss on that though is the, they don't specialize first. And so like, you kind of came in, even yourself, it's like around obviously one just sales, high ticket sales, that's specializing, but then also like sales building sales teams, like yeah, you do coach on becoming better at sales, but like you kind of launched at least from my awareness of really around helping people build sales teams, which is even more specialized, which allows you to like compartmentalize the IP.

And also streamline, like there's only a handful of systems that you really need to create and offer your clients for them to have exponential results. Whereas like, if you were a sales plus marketing, plus all these other things, when you first launched, like it would have been hard to kind of transition from the agency version of that into kind of the model that you have now, at least what I've seen.

Mike Mark: [00:10:18]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's completely true. And, in, in our experience of the scale, like I did it all first, like, and the weird part is I had done it before, and then I kinda like started going out and really thinking like, okay, now I'm going to systematize this as IP. So, but I still did the work. Well documenting and systematizing the IP, and then also being in the trenches, trying to figure out what's not working.

And then like aggressively, like attacking, how do I remove that thing that's not working. And then eventually it kinda like left with what does work for the most part. And then being able to hand that off to team members. Yeah, that was like, I think, you know what you're saying and specializing is, is partly specialized, but then partly like actually become a fucking expert, which is like a comment, a novel concept sometimes in what we do.

Greg Hickman: [00:11:12]

Right. Well, I mean like the notion of productizing, I think like requires specialization first because the. When you go to productize something, you should likely at least if what, what makes it easy, like product nice and easy when you've done it enough times that you've already seen the loopholes and you've know where the trouble spots are because you've done it so many times. And that is what actually allows you to create the appropriate systems to streamline it. And so it's like if you've never solved the same problem, more than one or two times, like it's hard for you to see those gaps. For you to even productize it in the first place.

And so that's, again, why I see a lot of, you know, full service generalist agencies really suffer because they've just, I just haven't spent the time on specializing. Most of them haven't the specialty. They just started there and then slowly expanded by default versus staying, staying focused. And so sometimes it's just like getting zoomed back in and putting those blinders back on to what they were actually good at.

Mike Mark: [00:12:15]

Yeah. That makes sense. And I, I think that, like, what happens to them at that moment is they think that if I say no, I'm going to lose that client. When really saying yes, costs him far more business in the long run because there's, there's so much more value in being the guy, right? Like, so when, when someone's like, I need a sales rep, I'm the guy.

And so everybody's then tagging me or like, intro-ing me. And like, it's almost like once you become that, the guy of that thing. You have a whole army of people out there that are trying to get you clients and help you out and grow. And it's like, that doesn't happen if you become like a something to everybody.

Greg Hickman: [00:12:57]

Absolutely. And this is why I like the classic case. Like if you talked to pretty much, at least the agency owners that we talked to, you know, everyone's like, we rely on word of mouth and referrals, but the, the reason that they can't grow off of that is because they're not consistent. And the reason it's not consistent is because most of your clients can't even actually tell someone else what you do.

Because it's custom to them. And so like, they're not sure if what you do for them is what you do for other people. And so they can't even clearly communicate what it is you do to other people, which is why the referral engine doesn't even work. And that's why you're kind of on the up and down. It's like, Oh, you just got lucky, you got lucky that you had a handful of referrals that you were actually able to serve and, or you just bent over backwards in order to serve them because you needed the money. And it's just like perpetual loop that hold you down.

Mike Mark: [00:13:46]

Yeah. That's, it's such a big insight cause like that, that thing that you think you're being helpful, and they ends up just keep shooting you, yourself in the foot. And then I, it's one of those things that like it's you get just enough business to keep doing it, right?

So like, it keeps you in that place. And so you're like, Oh, okay, it's kind of working. And then like long term, it's a huge sacrifice. Whereas sometimes with, with specialization short term, there's a huge sacrifice, but long term, it pays off big time. And so like, one of the things that was kind of crazy was I remember like at the start of sort of the consultancy thing, I'd spent just a lot of money in ads and they would convert, but not quite as well as I'd want them to. And like, I was pretty in the hole when it came to ad spend. And the weird part is like I was running them. I knew what I was doing. I was super good at ad, super good at copy, knew my market backwards and forwards.

It's just not easy. Right? Like, it's easy to say it's easy, but it's difficult. So I was like really deep in the hole with ads. And then, someone offered, basically it was a 350-$400,000 a year VP of sales role. And then, you know, Adriana was like, take your take it, take it, take it, take it, take it take it. And I'm like, babe, I don't think I can do it, you know?

Oh and like I turned it down and like at the time she was kind of like, what the hell is wrong with you? Like, are you crazy? And is that sacrifice in the short term that ended up paying off like massively in the long term. So it's, it's sometimes that those two things are at odds. And it's hard to recognize that when you're in the moment.

Greg Hickman: [00:15:27]

Yes, totally funny. We had a client reach that just, he's like about 30 days in and, he has had a big, you know, big agency's done, like design talks for people that have done TEDx and everything, like kind of a creative services agency. And when he, when we first spoke to him, it was kind of a couple of weeks into COVID and he said, Greg, he's like, dude, the COVID is the best thing to have happened in my business because the, like I've been stuck on that hamster wheel of just like ready to change how we do it and productize, like you've been talking about. But every time we'd go to do it, we'd get that one opportunity. And we're like, all right, this'll be the last one. And he's like saying, this'll be the last one for five years. And he's like, I've been miserable the last five years. And he's like, COVID like wiped out our entire client base and gave us a reason to start from scratch.

And he's like, don't know love with my business again. And like, that's a common thing we're hearing from our clients is like, I actually enjoy what I'm doing again, which is actually the most fulfilling part of what we've been doing because. I know it can get really tiring and exhausting and just feeling like you're an employee dependent upon how you structured it.
And it's like, just that, that switch alone. It's like the one more client, like stop doing that. It's such a short-term payoff.

Mike Mark: [00:16:42]

That's interesting. Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's so seductive. Sometimes you get the deal here. I, well, I mean, there's a big rev share or there's this type of thing. And I know we don't normally do this, but I could do it.

So screw it. Let's give it a shot. And it's like, ah, yeah. And then the whole team…

Greg Hickman: [00:17:02]

..to use Twitter will be a social media marketing agency now. It's like.

Mike Mark: [00:17:06]

Yeah.

Greg Hickman: [00:17:07]

Talk to you that.

Mike Mark: [00:17:09]

So, I guess like with people who are trying to specialize, but for some reason they're struggling to specialize, what's what's like, the thing that normally is holding them back from like making the leap and going to that really niche down, offer niche down process and then productizing?

Greg Hickman: [00:17:29]

Yeah. I mean the first one is, is the mindset of thinking that you know, that by niching down or simplifying my services is like going to be harder to grow. I mean, that's a common one. I mean, we've all talked about that in varying ways. So I won't go super deep on that. I think the next big obstacle is the, like, thinking that productizing needs to be, like if, if you're this full service or more of a generalist person that the productizing means, like you go from being all of the things to like I'm in a super zone in on like SEO and like only offer one skill set, which I don't. I think that's a huge, actually a big mistake is what is the combi, it's really, what is the combination of skillsets that you can put together that actually solve a valuable problem and then productize around that. Yeah. So it's not necessarily like you need to go from a web design agency that does social ads and SEO to just one of those. It's how do you combine pieces of those to solve a specific problem.

Because likely it's going to take some of the, and sometimes, you know, you do have to, cut some fat and some of those skillsets that you don't really utilize, but often I find it's actually a combination of specific skill sets and services that will yield a specific result. And that's what the product actually ends up being. So that's another thing. So maybe if that's, what's been slowing you down is like thinking that you just need to go from all of these services on, on your menu to like one of them. It doesn't have to be that way. How do you combine them to go after a particular problem?

Mike Mark: [00:19:12]

That's really interesting. Have you ever read the book called how to fail at almost everything and still win big?

Greg Hickman: [00:19:18]

No, but I want to, now.

Mike Mark: [00:19:20]

It's by a, Scott Adams. He's the guy who's the creator of Dilbert. And like, he's so funny he writes and you just like, I like his, his thinking is very lucid, very clear and like funny as well.

And, he talks about this idea and it's actually like an idea that when I read it, I knew that that was like the thing for me, especially for me. Cause like I, inside of our culture, especially like high performance culture and entrepreneurial culture, there's that, that idea of like Michael Jordan, Tom Brady, right?

Like Michael Jordan, you just are the one thing of your thing and you just, that's all you do or tiger woods, like that's all you do is that one thing. And you play that game every single day. And like, I've always been more fascinated by the guys, like, the rock or Kanye or like, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger where it's like, how the fuck did you go from bodybuilder to movie star to governor? Like, that's insane. Right? Like, or, or with Kanye, it's like you go from beatmaker to rapper, to Louis Vuitton's head designer, like w where's that occur. And, he calls the idea though, skill stacking. And he's like saying that, you know, I wasn't very good at, at being in corporate, but I was good enough. I wasn't very good at drawing, but I was good enough and I wasn't very good at being funny, but I was good enough.

And then I combined the three and then you got Dilbert and that unique combination that is Dilbert solves a specific problem for anybody in corporate that understands this humor and it took off, right? And so it's like exactly what you're saying. It's like that skill stacking idea. You don't need to be the one, like you're now the SEO guy, it's the stacking of all those skills that come together.

And then how do those combine in a way that, and I think, I remember you and I were messaging. It was like a long time ago too. And, I think that maybe like two years ago, and we were just talking back and forth on messenger and we're talking about the idea of like falling in love with the problem.

Greg Hickman: [00:21:23]

Mm. Yes.

Mike Mark: [00:21:24]

And like, that's what, and also, like when you talk about that, taking your skills and combining them, that's what I hear when you say specialization, because for me it was like that, that was the thing that did it for us was I was like, okay, someone's at this point, And then I could get them to that point.

And then I fell in love with the problem and everything that was surrounding the problem, and then just figure it out, like whatever skills you need to have inside of solving that one specific problem. That's what we're going to figure out. And then we just committed the time, energy and resources to mastering the problem, as opposed to mastering us, a service per se or mastering like, I don't know how to say it.

Greg Hickman: [00:22:02]

Like a, like a specific deliverable, like a service, like a, like a style of service deliverable. And as you're saying this, I don't know if I've actually ever said it this way. And or if, how it was in my head will come out of my mouth the same way. But like, I think when people think productized also indoor, even specialized, that that means like the, the strengths that they had as a generalist need to kind of go away. It's if you specialize in solving a specific problem, like that's where you specialize, it actually will still benefits you to be a generalist on the backend. Because like, I mean, when you start to understand, like, you're, you specialize in sales, but because you focus in sales and you have general knowledge and kind of, you know, a skillset across the board, you really start to see how sales can impact an entire organization.

Mike Mark: [00:22:50]

Yeah.

Greg Hickman: [00:22:51]

And like, even though you're still only solving, you know, helping people on sales teams when like we come to you and we have problems that like aren't necessarily related to sales, so to speak, you're like, Oh, well, when you do that, here's how that's going to impact your sales because you still know enough about the other areas.

And so your generalist knowledge as an agency, owner is a skill in and of itself and will benefit you, but you don't want to have that on the front end. You want like your specialization to be in the problem that you solve with the solution that you use to solve it. But that generalist experience will make you a better provide like a fulfillment provider on the backend.

Mike Mark: [00:23:29]

Yeah. Yeah. That's super true. Cause like, I, I tell like most of our clients, when they come on board, I'm like, guys, I just want to be upfront like I tricked you, right? Like I completely tricked you. I told you that all we do is the sales thing, but like really I know that like basically any parts of the business and whatever it takes to scale to the seven, eight figures, like I know in and out.

So, if you have questions, ask them because it's all related. And so, I think that the, especially for messaging path and for like hiring team and scaling that specialization super important, but I think that you can't actually build a robust product or business, if you don't have generalist knowledge, like I'm like firmly adamant about it.

So yeah, that's a really good point. And, I think that that like, a long time ago, like in another life, when I would take sales calls all day, every day, you know. That was a problem I might hear people always hemming and hawing back and forth on it's like, well, you know, I got all this, but should I do this?

And that lack of clarity keeps them in this loop of like, what, what do I narrow down on? Who do I, what service do I offer? How do I scale? But, but pardon me? And then there's like that one side of you, that's like emotionally, I want to do this thing, financially, I want to do that thing. And then how do I reckon those two. Do you experience that with your clients?

Greg Hickman: [00:24:49]

Oh yeah and myself. I mean, so we just had our, one of our virtual had to be virtual this time. It's normally in person these two day intensives that we do quarterly, and one of the kind of, I always share like 10 principles that we learned over the last 90 days.

And one of them was kind of leading up to when we started working with you, which was, you know, sometimes the business demands. Or the demands of the business won't align with like your desires and, or immediate demands as the owner, which means like, you might have to do some things that you don't want to have to do in order to get to the point where you've earned the right to be able to do that.

And so for me, it was like, I really wanted to get off the phones, but I hadn't done enough to get the volume consistently to warrant me getting off the phones. And you even like, kind of gave me specific numbers and I was like, all right, well, what do I need to do to hit that number? Greg has to clear his calendar as much as possible.

All of his other responsibilities to load it up with sales calls and he needs to be able to do that consistently to be able to then say, Oh, well, I can put this many calls on a calendar. I was exhausted, drained, totally tired, not useful in any other part of area of my life and or business in like that stretch, stretch of 30 days.

But when we were like, oh crap, Greg's on like 18 calls this week, already has 18 scheduled for the next week, already has 15 for the week after that. We're like, okay, we've done enough to display that we can probably fill someone else's calendar. But like we didn't, we wouldn't have known that until like I had fulfilled the demands of the business, which was max out the sales calendar, at that time, which was not desirable to me.

I mean, I was doing everything to avoid it, but like, that was the thing it had to be done. And I see clients doing it all the time. Oh, like, I want to start doing this with my content. I'm like, you literally don't have enough calls on your calendar or, you know, you're still doing, you know, spending too much time in fulfillment.

Like we need to do other stuff first. So like enable you to be able to do those things that you want. I want to do a, but it's just out of sequence.

Mike Mark: [00:26:54]

So one thing I'd want to know from you is, so you did that, right? Like you basically bit the bullet and you went for it. How did that impact then the process when you did bring in the salesperson?

Greg Hickman: [00:27:10]

Oh, I mean, well, I mean, Hey, I felt like I had had enough conversations to kind of share my own like product knowledge. So this is like, there's that like what to say and how to handle or answer certain questions we're a lot easier to communicate, obviously. Cause I had a lot more reps under my belt, and more consistently and more frequently.

I mean, but we also had the cheat code, which was like, you know, all the systems that you gave us. So like, I mean that was, you know, that was super, you know, like plug and play. All right, like follow, follow these things. So, I mean, while I didn't have to necessarily be the person that trained the sales rep. My job on training them on product knowledge. And like that piece became, which I'm good at, just became so much easier. So yeah, I mean, and then also in having done that, I had actually developed a lot of resources that I was using myself, in the sales process that made like weaponizing our new sales reps that we got from you guys like way more effective.

I mean like the sales resource document that you gave us, like, I like put it on steroids and there's like all of these things now on that document that our team is utilizing and they, and they've even said to us are like, man, like we have, I feel like everything that we need to sell and it's obviously helped cause they've been selling, closing, you know, a lot, a lot of deals relatively early from what I've been told.

Mike Mark: [00:28:39]

Yeah. Yeah. And then they came in and like just started hitting the ground running and, I, I guess when, when you're in that phase, like sometimes in that 30 day sprint, when you're taking all those calls, it feels like it's never going to end, you know, it's like this, like, this is an eternity of being on calls, especially for like, I know for you, you're like a lot of our clients where the calls are actually a source of frustration and like, like dread, you feel like, Oh, like another sales call. For me, like I, when you told me, like I'm taking 18 calls, I'm like, that's it like, cause I could do, I could do like 40 calls, 60 calls in a week if I'm really, really pushing hard, but like 25 30 is kind of where I start to feel like, okay, I'm working hard here.

And like, it's, it's interesting though like you pushed it really hard, but the other thing is and I'm curious to hear if you notice this, but so one of the things we tell the clients all the time is that as you're starting to scale, you know, initially you sell your prospects and then eventually you get to the point where your sales reps sell your prospects and you sell your team.

Right? And so when you've done it in that sort of like intensity and speed and velocity, like you have so much more certainty when you're selling your reps.

Greg Hickman: [00:29:56]

Yeah. Total.

Mike Mark: [00:29:57]

So it's not like, I think like, yeah. I mean, I think they should be getting the deals. It's like, no, I know how the thing fucking works. Like I just did it, like you got this and then they feel that confidence as well. And like, they take that and then own it when they show up on the calls.

Greg Hickman: [00:30:12]

Totally. Yeah. 100%.

Mike Mark: [00:30:16]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, it's so easy to, to try and skip that, right? And like, like, like what you said, you prioritize your personal desires over the business's needs. And then in that moment, and that now you're in this place where it's like, you don't have the confidence, cause you don't know if the thing's broken or working or not.

And so you're trying to kind of cajole them, but then nobody knows what's broken or what's working or not.

Greg Hickman: [00:30:42]

Yeah. I mean, it kind of goes back to that notion of skill stacking. I mean, like, I did enough reps on my own, on my own piece to feel confident to sell them into the opportunity. And then I got to borrow and adapt your skill set and systems to like, make the, shorten the gap on how long it would have taken me to do that by myself, you know?

But like I had to do some of those things, you know, first. And I mean, in many ways when I first came to you, you're like, yeah, you don't really have enough volume, like you just need to actually close a little bit more and really probably increase your own volume first. And I was like, alright, cool. Like I got to do that. And that was really the beginning of the whole thing for us.

Mike Mark: [00:31:23]

Yeah. I'm curious in, in your experience, what has been like, cause I know as you've scaled to seven figures, what has been the most challenging? Like I feel like there's, there's these stretches where you hit like a patch and it's very difficult. So like what has been one of the most challenging stretches for you?

Greg Hickman: [00:31:45]

Oh man. The thing that's coming to mind. Hopefully I can articulate this well enough. So, it's the, now that I ha I'm starting to, and we're still in the early stages, for sure. Like we're still potentially on the precipice of the dip that you talk about.

Mike Mark: [00:32:04]

Yup.

Greg Hickman: [00:32:04]

And, but this ties into what I'm going to share is like now that I've had like some of my bandwidth given back, because we have the reps on the team, I've been able to start thinking about like solving the next problem.

And I think the challenge is like, I know the next like three, four or five problems that I need to solve, and like trying to prioritize. I'm like now I like actually feel like I'm playing a game of chess. And I'm like, okay, like I know what my next five moves are. I'm not sure which one I'm going to need to use the second.

And all of that, I feel like there's been some pressure that I've felt personally of like, man, like, we really like our, both of our reps, like we were expecting to have one and like, we like both of them and like, Oh, okay. So in order to keep both of them, we need to basically like almost double the numbers that we were planning on trying to achieve in order to keep the one, because now we want to keep the two.

And so now it's like, I wake up and I'm literally just driven from a place of, okay, I know the next problems. I need to solve these so that we can keep both of these other guys happy. And so I kind of feel like I'm working for like a new cause, like it's not just about me. Like, it's about like, you know, the rest of the team and now there's like a weird anxiety and pressure that I like as it relates to that, but it's also a little nerve wracking for sure.

Mike Mark: [00:33:27]

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely the case, right? Like once you start having more and more people, depending on the business, it's kind of like, Holy shit. Like the responsibility is not one that's taken lightly, you know?

Greg Hickman: [00:33:37]

Yeah. But it also it's, it's never like the thing that needs to be done has never been more clear, which is also it's like, if I had felt that way with no idea what to do next, I, it would have been way worse, whereas like, I know what needs to be done. And it's like that same 30 day stretch in sales. Like I actually kind of need to do a 30 day stretch like that in marketing now, to kind of dial in a couple of things so that I can offload some things there next, right?

Like media buying. Like I still run my own ads and I've gotten a lot better at it and I can still get a little bit better, but I need to get a little bit better while starting to document how I want it to be done so that I can go get the person in the next 30 days to take it over. So, yeah.

Now it's just like, okay, this, that 30 day sprint is now aimed at something different to solve a different problem with the next problem.

Mike Mark: [00:34:28]

Yep. Yeah. It makes sense. It's basically the pressure now is fill the calendars.

Greg Hickman: [00:34:32]

Yeah.

Mike Mark: [00:34:33]

Yeah, yeah. I always tell like every client I'm going to like, we do this, right, we're going to break your business, right? Then the bottlenecks going to be now going to fulfillment, or it's going to go to marketing. In your case, your fulfillment's pretty down path. So it's moved over to marketing and it's like, shoot, now we've got to figure that out.

Greg Hickman: [00:34:52]

And for everyone listening, I mean, like he wouldn't have been able to say that if he hadn't specialized, right? So like, like, I mean, I'm going through a training of his, that's like, Hey, you're going to hit this point called the dip. And it's like, he's already seen around corners for me. Like, that's hard when you're just doing everything, right? Like when you've solved the same problem, you could be like, alright, here's what's going to happen after you've done what, you're like, you wanted this. But here's the problem after that, then we're going to need to be ready for like right after we get to this thing that you want. So like, we can't just rest on our laurels right now. Like we got to keep rolling and it's like, when you specialize like that, being able to show someone around those corners is really like one of the most powerful things that I think is a byproduct of productization.

Mike Mark: [00:35:36]

Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. And it's just like, I think it's also goes to what we said, like you fall in love with the problem, like, w w in our situation it's really fascinating because like, I kind of feel like, like this is kind of, eh, it may sound like braggadocio, but it's just fucking true. Like we created the category in a lot of ways. Like, like we came out with a specific, like hybrid recruiting and closing offer and training offer. Nobody else had fucking done that, right? Everybody else was all still group coaching, Sam Oven's style at that point in time. So we came out with this distinct offer that was like completely different to what everybody else was doing.

And then now, now you can't fucking throw a dime without hitting someone who's doing the same thing. And they're all rolling out, trying to compete with us. And the interesting part is that, dude, I can't tell you how many of them start try for two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, then start referring us the customers cause they can't fucking fulfill.

And it like they give up because they didn't realize how hard the problem was to solve. And.

Greg Hickman: [00:36:43]

It's a hard problem

Mike Mark: [00:36:44]

It is a super hard problem, dude. Like, I can't tell you how many nights I like screamed, got mad, like banging my head on the wall, like fucking pissed for hours and hours on end trying to solve the problem and like, people aren't ready for that in a lot of cases.

But for me, it was like going into it. I knew that I was committed to solving the problem. I wasn't committed to making the money and that if I solved the problem, the money would follow. Whereas all these people see the opportunity and they get the dollar signs in their eyes. And then as soon as the fucking wave of problems hit, they quit because they can't.

And they're like, it's just, it's so many problems and it's going to be such a, like a painful, shitty experience trying to solve it. Then they don't have the pain tolerance to do it.

Greg Hickman: [00:37:29]

100% and they it's what I'm guessing is it's probably for many others, a piece of their whole puzzle where it's your whole puzzle. And so like, the amount of bandwidth and attention that they can spend on actually building out a lot of infrastructure in the systems is a fraction of what you're able to do, which is why it's like, okay, your system is pretty bulletproof, at least from what I've seen so far. And it's like, all right, plug and play. Sweet. Let's take that. Update it. Got it. Cool. Next thing. Let's go. It's like it's it was just, it's been super seamless. And again, I think it's like when you are specialized in, you're constantly focused on that one kind of sphere like being able to create those things is a lot easier than when it's just one of your, you know, whatever offerings.

Mike Mark: [00:38:20]

Yeah. Yeah. It's true. And then, there's that whole concept as well, like the cost of delay. Right? So it's like in like that, the classic diagram of focus, everyone knows that the three little lines going all around and it's like, if you go to the one, it goes way further. And so it's that same thing too.

It's like, you're getting pulled in all these directions. You ended up going nowhere. Whereas you just go on one, it's going to really like start to produce the results. So I guess, what are you looking at when it comes to scaling your marketing and like booking the calendars out now?

Greg Hickman: [00:38:53]

Right now we're really just looking at, I mean, in regards to like, what's the challenge or like, what are, what things are we doing?

Mike Mark: [00:39:00]

Well, yeah. How are you going to solve the problem? I guess like maybe, maybe the way you answered that question is by how you're defining the problem and then how you solve them.

Greg Hickman: [00:39:07]

Yeah. So, I mean, we've kind of, at this point, reverse engineered everything around like number of, number of apps, that we need, taking into account our no show rate, which is low and like of the percentage of which apps are qualified.

which for us right now is pretty high as like 80% on average of our apps are qualified, at least initial, initially qualified, probably slightly lower after that. But, so I mean to hit, hit our goals, you know, we have a specific number of apps and so we're like, okay, well, as of right now, like Greg could probably increase that number by X percent.

And just his own skill set alone in ads, we know that we're leaving money on the table from all the leads that we're generating, that haven't booked. So we're bringing in, you know, you know, more of like a sales development rep who's going to doing some outbound stuff. You know, talking and engaging with leads coming in through our webinar and our Facebook group, commenting and all the different, the things that we do on social.

So like I can see that person adding, you know, another 40 apps a month. Possibly one or two of those people, you know, could easily help us hit our goal. Like I'm trying to figure out how do we hit that number with as few things as possible, because there's tons of stuff we could do, but I'm really thinking it's scaling up my Facebook ads a little bit more a specialist, or sales setter, SDR, whatever, want to call them over and as different term, that's kind of setting those people.

I want to expand into YouTube, probably in the next, the next 90 days, for sure. I mean, our YouTube channel is at like 3000 subscribers about, so like I already have a good, like building a presence on there. So I think naturally being there from an ads perspective would be good. So there's like, there's three hires, just like in what I just said right there, that could be helpful, but that's like the initial thing that I'm doing.

And I say all of that and it's like, but being consistent, doing all of it, you know, do cause it's really, all of those are kind of little things. I mean, have a big impact with like training people. It's like doing some of that unsexy work. It's like, okay, like you have to be an operator. And when I look at all the people that are like way far further ahead than I am fundamentally, they're just really good at operations like sales and marketing can get you far.

But like, if you look at the most successful companies, they're really good operators or have really good operators. And like, I feel like I need to become a little bit better of an operator with my team around those roles and helping them be able to do their job. And I think the biggest challenge is just staying focused on only doing those things.

Cause there's like a hundred cool, shiny things that you could do that I would love to probably do, but are really just a waste of time. So staying focused on those, I think is, is really the next, the next piece.

Mike Mark: [00:41:54]

Yeah. I mean, I think like it's funny cause I, this is, kept coming up as the theme of the conversation, but it's, it's the challenge, right?

It's the challenge that like, there's all the stuff you want to do and then there's the stuff you need to do. I don't know. Have you ever read the book, the effective executive?

Greg Hickman: [00:42:11]

No, but I'm going to read, down to two.

Mike Mark: [00:42:14]

That one's by, Peter Drucker. So, Peter Drucker is kind of like the management god, right? And, the, the, the question is like the number one question that he has in there is what needs to get what needs to be done. And he says that executives are always concerning themselves with that question of what needs to be done in the organization right now. And then figuring that out and then doing it and making sure it's getting done.

And then just like what needs to be done, what needs to be done, what needs to be done. And, I think the other thing that happens too, is like, I don't know if in your case you didn't experience it this time at all. Whereas some people experience it massively because you, when you solve the bottleneck this time, you know, very obviously what the bottleneck is next time, right?

The harder part sometimes is when you solve the bottleneck and then you have no idea whether where the fucking bottleneck is. You know?

Greg Hickman: [00:43:09]

Yeah.

Mike Mark: [00:43:11]

It's like, I can't, I got no idea. I got no idea where this thing is. And then, cause it's not quite showing its face. And then that at that point you almost need to do something like a vacation test or whatever to figure out where's the business break. And then how do we reinforce it there?

reg Hickman: [00:43:26]

Yeah. And I mean, and not having data is like, makes that even harder. I mean, like, you could feel what you think the bottleneck is, and then you can look at the data and be like showing that it's completely in a different area. And so having the data is powerful too.

I mean, thankfully we track everything coming all the way through, you know, and our, some of our metrics have even been enhanced by some of the systems that you've provided. And so it's like, okay, like we can look at the vitals and be like, all right, like that's actually the problem over here. Like I want to do this, but will that actually change that number over there?

No, this thing over here is going to change that number. So we should probably look at that thing over there, first. But yeah, most entrepreneurs, I think even, yeah, I think blank its statement, I think most entrepreneurs are even flying blind on what data they even have. And so they make these like emotional gut decisions and nobody makes really that good of decisions.

Like, so it kind of turns into this, this weird cyclical, cyclical problem.

Mike Mark: [00:44:28]

W one of my favorite instances of that, it's like we have these clients and I love them, but they were in a situation where they're like, they're going to pivot change their entire business model, right? They're going to go from selling high ticket products to only selling courses from webinars.

And they're all like our sales team's not doing good. And this is just, it's so stressful. We can't, we can't handle this anymore. I'm like, okay guys, I'm with you. Now what's the data you're basing that decision on. And they're like, well, you know, it just feels like they're not taking calls. I'm like, have you looked at the numbers?

Like, well, not really, no, no, no. I'm like, okay, what do the numbers tell you? And then they looked and it's like, their team is closing 20, 25%, like one reps closing 33%. That's like the team's hitting the numbers. They just weren't feeling it so their emotions and then, with the data of saying we're out of line and like, I think, something that, that maybe, I would like to ask you for the audience here.

Cause I think that a problem that we get with a lot of clients, and this was actually our problem too, is most people's tracking stops after the sales made, right? Like if they track their marketing usually pretty well, like it's easy to track marketing cause you've got your leads, you got your apps, you've got your ad spend and whatever, right?

You track your sales. It's easy to track that. But then like people make the sale and then there's no data for the majority of people. And we were like super guilty of this, like. To be honest, better than most, because we had data, but we didn't have good enough data. And so like, I just couldn't handle it.

So like what would you, like when you're looking at someone's systems and fulfillment and structuring their business and helping them make sure they could get a repeatable result that scales, like, what are some of the fulfillment metrics that you have your eyes on?

Greg Hickman: [00:46:18]

Yeah. So, I think for everyone, service is probably going to be a little bit different, but in this last intensive, we just did a whole training on how we track client success. And what we really come down to is like, the main thing is, for the lack of a better name, call it like a red, yellow, green system. So like we need as a team every Monday as a part of our team meeting and we kind of look over it, all of the clients active and we put them either in red, yellow, or green.

And so we know based on our software that we use are like WordPress learning, management, whatever. Like when they complete certain trainings and modules, like we can be like, all right, they're at module seven that means they're this far along, and they've only been in the program for X time. Like they're moving at a really good pace to finish everything for them to hit all the milestones that we have.

So I think it's like one understanding where do they need to be at what time in order to achieve the goal that they came for. So I like having some yardstick to measure that. And then the red, yellow, green system sort of layers on top of that and says, Okay, well, like what signals, are you looking for to determine if this person is like off the rails, needs help or is like totally on track.

And then if you see those signals, what do you do? And so again, I think everybody, because your fulfillment result is probably delivering something different. You'll have to identify what those signals are going to be for you. And then what are the appropriate actions? Cause one thing that I did notice by failure, is like common signals, like course creators that talk about like, Oh, like they haven't finished all the training or whatever, or they're not showing up to the calls or whatever.

Cause we have someone on one, some group and so we track attendance of every single call and who's there, who's not. And we'll see like some clients that like crush it and have all of the results, but don't attend a single call because that's just not their nature. Like they don't like that environment.

Like they'd rather go heads down, ask a question when they need it. Otherwise they're good. And like, most people that I talked to they're like, yeah, would be panicking like this. Person's not going to pay them. Like, they're going to be off. Like, they're going to be gone because they ghosted. But like, that's just how they choose to operate.

And so it, it said, Oh my God, I see that they haven't attended. Automation sequence triggers. It says what's wrong. Like I'm assuming that something's wrong. Yeah. So sometimes yeah, you might think is a red signal is not really a red signal. And then you could kind of project a problem that isn't really a problem.

And so I think going through the repetitions enough time is understanding like, Hey, when this happens, we reach out in a non concerned way as a touch point and let the response dictate if there's actually a problem or not. Like, Hey, haven't seen you on any calls yet. Like, are you struggling? Like, do you have any questions?

Like, we'd love to help, but otherwise if you're good, just let us know and like, Hey, totally good. I don't really like those. I don't really like those calls. We're awesome right now. Like we were having so much fun. This is super valuable and it's like, Oh, like if I had sent an email, like. Are you okay? Are you okay?

Like they were like, what are you talking about? You know, and so, I think, like installing a red, yellow, green system for like what signals you might want to be looking out for maybe it's attendance, maybe it's, you know, they're off, not hitting milestones correctly. And then creating like a game plan or a playbook.

I'm like, what do I do if I see them go from green to yellow or yellow to red? If you just do that consistently, I think you'll probably see a tremendous result in your client's success. And also probably, d like deemphasize all of the amount of weird, like negative, emotional energy that you have thinking that clients are like not going to make the second payment because they haven't attended any calls or whatever that throws you in these weird dark loops.

Mike Mark: [00:50:04]

Yeah, dude, it was like, so shady. I took, so I took a week about 10 days off, around Christmas, and then I was off and like, you know, the huddles, cause we huddle and we're like big proponents of a daily huddle as a team. And so the huddles were, are kind of like touch point where we knew everything with every client.

And like, that was how I got my tribal knowledge almost. And without it, like, I just would have like anxiety, like all day, dude, I'd be like trying to be, be with my family, like enjoying my niece and nephew and stuff. But my head's like, thinking about like what the fuck's going on with this client what's happening with that client?

What's it like, Oh my God, is this thing blowing up? I wonder. And like, I would never know. And then the part of our issue too, was we had different comms systems. So I had no optics on comms at the level I needed to. So, I like, I would just always be like freaking out. And, we fix that. We did actually what you're talking about.

So we changed our com system. So we have optics, we've run a red, yellow, green system with a weekly meeting on Monday. We track attendance on calls. We track like progress through modules and systems like that. And, ever since doing that, like, so I did a two week vacation test since we had the baby and it was just like, all right, I'm going to pull out and see what happens and like what breaks.

And it's like, I came back and dude I'm like blown away. Like I thought there would be issues, but like the, they killed it. Like they knocked all these projects out and I'm sitting here like, fuck you guys don't need me anymore.

Greg Hickman: [00:51:35]

Yeah. Yeah. It must've been a great feeling too.

Mike Mark: [00:51:40]

Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty exciting

Greg Hickman: [00:51:41]

For them too, for them too.

Yeah. I think having that, like the optics around that is super important. the, I think, and this is why I love the kind of this hybrid model that we have is like b because it's priced appropriately, we can still be more hands on than if it were like DIY.

Mike Mark: [00:52:00]

Yeah.

Greg Hickman: [00:52:00]

And the DI, or the hands on high touch parts of it while still are fairly leveraged, they give you the other side of the data that's more like sentiment. Like, are they happy? Like how are they feeling? Like something that's more, you know, you know, qualitative versus quantitative that like we can weave into the fulfillment process. It's like, all right, like they're totally fine because, you know, they said these things, like, we think they're good versus, Hey, the way they're saying this thing is a little bit weird despite how far are they off. Like, they might like, let's make sure we look at them next week, like to see if they've got, if they're about to go yellow. And so I don't know, there's that touch point. Like, I mean, we have weekly calls with your team. It's like, that's awesome. You know, so I'm sure there's plenty that, that the team can come back and be like, yo, Greg's freaking out. He's, you know, super emotional on this, but you know, I think he's gonna be fine.

Mike Mark: [00:52:54]

Here's our game plan. Now we're going to go do this, this and that. And like, yeah, it helps also add that feedback loop. So we know what's up with the situation. Yeah. And like, It's weird, people have different styles as clients, you know?

And so like some people style is like, don't say anything until it's a full blown fucking emergency. And then they come at you with like a tidal wave of issues. Other people will tell you early and be like, cool. And be like, Hey, you know, it's not even a big deal. But I just thought you would want to know with your product.

This thing I think happened, or this is how I'm feeling. It's like, sweet, thank you. It's all like that varying level of people's communications, we almost had to standardize it so we could have that feedback loop. Otherwise, without it, we were just like, never knew if they were about to like, get hit with some massive issue or someone come at you like super mad about some shit that they just never communicated or activated in your product.

And it's like, just ask a goddamn question. It's not like, just ask the question. I'm not, not crazy here.

Greg Hickman: [00:53:58]

Yeah. It's it's and I think that that flexibility for everybody, like whatever the red light green is, and then like, what are the top three actions you're going to take based on which one they're at. Like you install that and the next, the next decisions will be pretty obvious.

And then obviously you can layer in automation and do cool tech things to help make sure that that's, you know, captured and those things don't fall through the cracks. But I mean, you got to figure out what that, what that system is for you, first.

Mike Mark: [00:54:26]

Yeah, yeah .Love that. And I think that's a good note to end on because like, and just to emphasize too on what Greg is saying, like, I know I said it once, but just to say it again for anyone out there watching this, like we implemented that exact thing almost like two or three and how it feels running the day to day business, not just for me, but for the entire team in general. It's like such a massive difference. And also the experience for the clients is significantly better because now, like before what would happen is clients would come to us with problems and then we'd have to be like, Oh, well, so tell me more about that problem.

And then we have to find it and that the problem exists and what, like actually trying to figure out the problem. And now it's like, we know the problem in advance so we can come to them and say, Hey, here's this problem. Here's what's going to be done. Here's what we're doing. Here's what, you're what we expect you to do. Here's the game plan.

And so it's not this like, we, you never know what's lurking around the corner type of thing, but, you know, and you're proactively communicating it and as a client and a service provider, it's a way more fun relationship and a better experience.

Greg Hickman: [00:55:34]

Totally, totally. Yeah. Client and clients will feel like taken care of because they have that ability, you know, and they know that you're checking in on them and they know that they're like when our, it was sort of Meta showing our clients what we were doing and they're like, yeah, Like, Oh my God. All of those times that you've reached out, like totally makes sense now. It's like, yeah, exactly.

Mike Mark: [00:55:56]

Cool. I love that. So I guess if anybody has more, that they want to learn about productizing, systematizing, scaling, like especially a complex expertise, like what you've really been able to help your clients do, how would they find you or go about connecting with you and sort of what, where should they check out or learn more?

Greg Hickman: [00:56:18]

Yeah. So I'll, I'll give you, I know this is like, not what you're supposed to do, but I'll give you three things that you can do. One is I have a YouTube channel. If you just searched Greg Hickman, there's like hundreds of videos that if like you watch them, you'll either be like, all right, I'm sold. Like we should talk to Greg or I don't like Greg at all, like watch those.

I do have a specific, like 27 minutes. It's a, like a mini webinar that walks through the three steps that we actually do focus on that I think pretty much everyone has to focus on first. That's it altagency.com/M as in mom, W. And if you really want, just email me, greg@altagency.com. If you have a question or whatever, happy to answer any questions, if we can, if we can help point you to the right direction, happy to do so.

Mike Mark: [00:57:00]

Cool. Let's see anyone have any questions before we wrap up? I'd like to see if anyone out there has got any questions. Happy to answer any quick questions for you.

Just give them a couple seconds and then we can wrap it up if no questions.

Sweet. I think we're good. I mean, there may be questions later and if there are, I'll just tag you at Greg or somebody else, might tag you in here, but, yeah, thanks for taking the time out, and.

Greg Hickman: [00:57:30]

It was fun.

Mike Mark: [00:57:31]

Yeah. It, like, It's been really cool to see. And like, in your case, that's, to be honest, I'm having more fun working with you than a lot of other people, because, when someone actually has their fulfillment dialed, it's way better to scale their sales. But when someone has marketing's really good, but their fulfillment shit, when you scale their sales, it's like, it kind of sucks working with them, partly because everybody in the sales team like, alright, shit, are we even selling a good product? And then like the chaos that ensues of, you know, they celebrate all these sales and make all these decisions, but then all their clients blow out because they can't support or fulfill them.

And it's like the, the collateral damage that comes from that is usually not nearly as fun as like, shit now I gotta book more calls.

Greg Hickman: [00:58:15]

Right. Yeah, yeah.

Mike Mark: [00:58:16]

Yeah.

Greg Hickman: [00:58:17]

Yeah. we've, we've done a lot of work on the fulfillment side. To, in some cases to our detriment, because it took away from when we should have been doing some of the sales and marketing stuff. But obviously now we've been equipped for, for doing this. So it's the right timing for sure.

Mike Mark: [00:58:32]

Yeah. And interestingly, like I see the people that scale the best are the ones who get their fulfillment down first then move into marketing as life. And then they pour, like, you just go all out and like, yeah, people skill marketing first and they'll do good.

And they have just good enough fulfillment. But, usually they're just so loud that like they polarize our audience in a way that they can keep selling a shitty product. And then the market just forgives them, which is weird, but, I don't think that's as fun of an organization for anybody involved. It's pretty toxic, you know.

Greg Hickman: [00:59:02]

Yeah. I mean, we're actually kind of the same way. So I mean, we always talk about like systemizing and simplifying kind of like the delivery model and the outcomes, so that specialization kind of piece of it and getting a few clients under your belt in that area first. So if we can like systemize structure, your onboarding your, how you're going to fulfill and then provide some of the tools to have a more systemized, repeatable sales process.

Like that's the, where we start. And it's like, okay, you go and flood yourself with 10 clients and you can't even fulfill, like, who cares if you can do lead generation? Like, it doesn't matter because you're going to have to refund people or, or turn them down because you don't have the capacity. And most agencies, like, we call it the scale factor is like, scale factor.

And an agency is like, well, what's your bandwidth? Like, what's your capacity on the fulfillment side? And so if you're going to install any system or any automation, it should be where you spend most of your time which is really sales or fulfillment in a traditional service agency model. Whereas like, if you're just selling a course or scale factor is always going to be in lead generation because there is no fulfillment.

And I think agencies come in and they're like, well, I need, I need more leads. And they haven't set up the infrastructure for the streamlined fulfillment and then they just eat it and it sucks and so kudos. Start from the back.

Mike Mark: [01:00:25]

Yeah. You gotta work your way back.

Greg Hickman: [01:00:26]

Sounds super awkward, but let's start with the fulfillment.

Mike Mark: [01:00:31]

All right guys, we're going to wrap up hope you guys enjoyed this. If you got any questions, just leave them here and also be sure to connect with Greg, actually check out his YouTube for sure it's like bomb. I'm low key secret fan. So, yeah, go check them out on YouTube. And then any questions you got, we'll be sure to come back and answer them. So thanks for tuning in y'all.

That's it for this week's interview. Hope you guys enjoyed it. If you did enjoy this interview, we do one like it every single week inside of our free Facebook group called Seven Figure Agency Owners and High Ticket Coaches. So if you're an agency owner, coach, service provider, and you're really wanting to scale to seven figures and beyond, join us inside the group. It's coachingsales.com/group. Again, coaching sales.com/group. See you on the inside.